| Author |
Message |
Andrea
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 5:20 am: | |
My husband and I are complete opposites in the sexual arena. I would be perfectly happy with a vanilla lifestyle. He, however, wants to be chastised, bound, tortured, and nothing to do with anything vanilla. For the last two years, I can count on probably one hand the number of times we have engaged in "unaided" sexual encounters. Every time we go somewhere in the car, he expects me to tie him up, or force him to wear feminine clothing. It seems that he wants nothing more than every spare second of my day spent thinking, planning and acting upon his fetishes. While I don't mind the occasional plotting & planning, or a special weekend away to delve exclusively into this, I miss the tenderness of him reaching for me in the middle of the night. We've tried numerous things to keep him chastised, thinking this was one way to keep us both happy, however, this just intensifies the situation. He wants me to communicate with him during work about this, to keep him excited and involved. I know this shouldn't be such a major issue, but it is really driving a big wedge in our marriage. Any suggestions on a compromise for us? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 10:24 am: | |
Become the top he thought he wanted. Tie and gag him to a chair now tell him you are tired of him toping from the bottom. You are going to become the top he thought he wanted. That you are now in charge. Tell him there are some new rules. *
1. Monday mooring to Friday night there will be no kink - except you will be locked in your belt before you go to work the belt will be removed when you get home.
2. During the week it will be vanilla relationship. * *
3. No winning during the week about the fact no kink, just vanilla.
4. Friday night to Monday mooring if you been good there will be kink.
5. One week end a month there won’t be any kink at all that includes the chastity belt.
6. Once in a while if I want there may be some kink but not often you be extremely nice and
earn it. Just because you may have earned it does not mean will get it. ***
At the end just before you untie him you get out the phone book look up attorneys and say some thing like this. I wonder if this Joe Blow is a good divorce attorney. Let him think about it for a bit before untieing him.
* Because men don’t hear things the way females say them you need to tell them in several ways
write it down. Tape it so he can listen to it more then once. give him time to think about what you said. Now ask him what he understand. that means ungag him have him explain what exactly you
with out having him kiss your feet, just to talk things to death.
** you tell him what vanilla is explain how you want him to act for you. He won’t
understand what you want unless you tell him. like bring you a flower, a hug and a kiss, just to sit together
*** tell him what generally kind of things will earn him a night of kink. just said to him.
A good psychologist that specializes in marriages might be in order also. So he will understand what you want. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 3:45 pm: | |
It sounds like a serious problem. The information you provide is incomplete, lacking such items as your ages, the length of your marriage and the extent of your prior experience. I am a 54 year old gay man (so my advice may seem somewhat remote), but, for me, "chastity," "innocence" and "affection" are the latest turns in a lifetime of perversion. Perverts can develop while those fixated on vanilla cannot not. |
rupert
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 1:35 pm: | |
I agree with anon #1.
But I'm not sure what anon #2 is trying to say.
My penny's worth - there's a tendency for men with a kink to treat women as mere high maintenance sex toys. Don't let yourself be treated that way.
However, it's also worth considering whether your husband is using the kink as an escape from some unhappiness in the same way some people use drugs or drink. |
Andrea
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 8:29 pm: | |
Thanks for the suggestions. My husband and I have a pretty good relationship otherwise, we've been together 8 years, and are in our thirties. Since the early days of our relationship, my husband has introduced his kinks slowly to me, making sure I wasn't overly uncomfortable. He's always been interested in bondage, and can remember many times as a teenager and younger experimenting with self-bondage.
One of the biggest differences is that it's easy for him, it comes naturally for him to think about things to do and acting upon his desires. Maybe because they are not my own desires, it's a lot more difficult for me. Maybe as he says, I'm stubborn and not open-minded when it comes to this.
I don't mind the occasional scene, in fact, it is nice once in awhile to tie him up in the bedroom and go on with daily life, stopping once in awhile to listen to his whimpering or moaning. Unfortunately, the more involved the scene, the more my husband believes I'm growing fonder of this, and wanting to increase our activity, or take it to the next level. I feel proud that I've accomplished something for him, and think there will be a break until the next big thing. Again, exact opposite.
As for chastity, he has made several belts of his own, we have a Neosteel and a CB2000. We have tried contracts from strict to lenient. We have tried mutual spoken agreements, we have had him leave the key at work, me having control of the key. For whatever reason, it works for a few days, then the fun seems to be over. We give up, him frustrated, me relieved, both of us a little disappointed.
We're very committed to one another, and there isn't a fear of either of us cheating outside the marriage. He has confessed to masturbation, and this infuriates me that he chooses his hand over me. Our sex life has never been as active as I would have liked, and after this confession, he has agreed not to masturbate.
After clarification, any more suggestions? Thanks again for your insight, it is much appreciated. |
T
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 10:09 pm: | |
Andrea,
Perhaps I can offer a few helpful thoughts. I'm the husband in a relationship quite similar to yours... but about a dozen years older, and still happily married after 20 years. Some of my news will be good, some not so good. In either case, its only one data point, so don't think of it as "clinical" or conclusive.
First, let's start with some relationship basics which probably have little to do with this site, but are nonetheless fundamental. We live in a media-driven society where "love", "lust", "sex", and "romance" all get blurred together. In reality, "love" is a good bit different than the the other three. Real "love" is about being "self-less"-- caring more about the other person than you care about yourself. The concern evidenced in your e-notes, your desire to find a solution, your willingness to consult this site (when you'd rather be "vanilla") all point to your caring attidude about your husband and your marriage, presumably it is rooted in self-less love. Regrettably, he's not giving you a fair shake in return.
Sexual kinks, obsessions, fantasy, etc. have the potential of becoming a narcotic. (I don't offer this to preach; rather, I know first-hand). Sexual obsession is much like most drugs, an immunity develops that requires a bigger and bigger dose each time to get high. It sounds like your husband may be in this mode. I don't have any (good) solutions on how to put this fire out, but maybe I can offer some thoughts on how to make the trend more manageable, and to live with it and continue to positively develop your relationship.
First, keep your own self-image in perspective: You've gone quite far down his path, and every step you take in his direction, he moves the goal post again (I've done this too, and it's an easy trap to fall into... for both of you). Contrary to what he's suggested, this does not sound like a situation where you've been "stubborn or not-openminded". Additionally, you mention that "he chooses his hand over me". That's not really accurate: It's not about you vs. his hand, its about you vs. a non-confrontational, depersonalized, probably unrealistic, but easily attainable fantasy. It's also about selfishness on his part, not self-lessness. (I am not suggesting that he does not love you, but I am suggesting that his ever-evolving desire to reach farther and farther without regard for you is not a loving act). I'll also go so far as to suggest that he may, deep down, share some concern about his own abilities to put limits on his appetite. And it is quite possible that he doesn't understand the effect that he is having on you. (This was certainly the case for me when we went down this bumpy road). Nonetheless, the point is, don't let his issues cause you to second guess your attractiveness or self-worth. That's not what this is all about.
OK, so what to do?... or more accurately, not to do. First, in an effort to please him and "get with the program", don't "act" like you're really turned-on by all the gymnastics when in reality your turning yourself inside-out over it. You will grow increasingly resentful, and he will ultimately feel dupped. (At almost exactly your stage of marriage, this is what happened with me and my wife). This is not easy, but it will only get fixed with real sincere, open, honest communication (and lots of caring) from both of you. You need to explain to him what you can handle, what does get you excited, and what is driving a "wedge" between the two of you. You also need to let him know how much you care about your marriage; but you also need to make it clear that this is serious stuff-- this isn't about a wife doing the typical nagging marital stuff. This is a core issue, and he needs to understand that its as serious and important to you as it is to him. He may mope-around a bit for awhile, but if he's a decent, caring guy that doesn't want to lose you, he'll come back to the table in search of a middle ground.
Now here's a couple thoughts that have fewer touchy-feely notes that may or may not be practical. First, the response above that says "He's topping from the bottom is pretty accurate". That would certainly describe me, and I think it describes your husband. This may be a very bad idea, but if you're game, you might ask him to top from the top. Maybe you'd entertain being belted? (gulp)... In either case, it might focus his attention on you, if he gets really excited about your "condition", you'll probably find him to be very attentive.
In my case, my wife's far less willing to go down the path than you seem to be. If you're not too uncomfortable with it, you could give it a try.
Another possibility is to consider ways to use his creativity, passion, and obsession to your advantage. This certainly has the potential to "blow-up", (but probably won't if you manage it carefully). In this regard, you need to find a way to create a real environment that is more compelling than his fantasy environment. If you can communicate openly, he'll probably give you a few ideas on how this might be possible. I know in my case, I've often felt that my wife has missed out on serious opportunities. I'd have cleaned the basement a hundred times over if only she'd had a better understanding of how to put my sexual passion and creativity to better use.
But at the end of the day, the real question is whether or not he has the capacity to understand that a real, loving, relationship is fulfilling on a continual and long-term basis... and that being tied to a wheel chair in nursing home 50-years from now isn't going to be very fulfilling. Integrating sexuality-- with appropriate levels of kinkyness, creativity, frequency, etc.-- into a relationship is a vital and necessary part of the relationship... but it is only a PART of the relationship. In his case, it has outgrown other parts of the relationship and is overshadowing some of the other very important pieces.
Good luck to both of you.
T |
KDPierre
| | Posted on Friday, May 04, 2001 - 2:43 pm: | |
Everything from "T" is excellent, and accurate. Rather than belabor points he has already clearly made, let me elaborate on his final point which may lead to the practical compromise you are looking for. Putting his fantasy to good use is practical in more than one aspect of your relationship. Getting his desires filled could very well become more "psychological" and give you the practical benefits of a somewhat standard relationship. Try this: lay out your desires of him as your partner, that is exactly what you'd like to see him do (for now don't stress the "not do's unless they are major) to and for you. Then tell him that if it makes it easier for him you could put these needs in a context of "demand". However you will need to stress that you are not looking to hover over and punish him, rather you will expect that he will fulfill his end of the bargain with no other compensation that that which you are willing to occasionally indulge in. If he demands any more the whole "deal" is off for good. Basically you will place mundane chores and caring romance in a "mental setting" that will be exciting to him but not openly kinky to you. It will all be a matter of personal perspective. He will help out and you will find it mature and caring, while he might be executing the same chore thinking "how sexy that my Mistress is making me do this". I think that what T was getting at. If you manage this correctly you could have a decent compromise that won't dissapoint either of you. The bottom line is that he may need to read these posts to understand how his current perspective is threatening what could be a very good if not "thrillingly ideal" Vanilla/D/s relationship. Good luck. |
binbag
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 5:03 am: | |
Andrea,
The fact that you are on this board shows a terrific commitment to your partner when so many other women would have taken the exit ramp out of a relationship issue that borders on abuse.
Take a look at Lady Misato's "Real Women Don't Do Housework" site at:
www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/8396 |
the dutchmyn
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 7:46 am: | |
So once again, while I agree with what's been said above, we have a situation where fantasy has no basis in reality. That's what I found out seeking a Femdom mate: no one was interested in it except to accommodate you, the guy. I would think women would have a vested interest in using chastity belts to keep guys from masturbating instead of saving it for them, and some here (Patty & Ron) "seem" to. But once again, I'm having my doubts. If sex is merely for vanilla expressions of commitment and procreation, I guess I'm left cold, except for personal feelings toward my mate, which are real: we make each other laugh. Why is it women can't grasp what this stuff is all about? Is this another guy self-help site: ie. self-help to deal with incompatible sexual tastes, or lack of them on the part of women, ie. Once again, I'm left with the "unacceptable", probably selfish thought: does anything turn women on, fantasy-wise? Is Nancy Friday a freak? Are we guys all selfishly trying to seek unattainable fantasies? I'd personally kill to live with some woman who locked my genitals up for months on end and kept my butt red and whipped because she believed in it. At least she'd be genuine. I hate asking my wife for BDSM or to get a CB again. But I also hate what passes for vanilla sex here also. Thank God I'm getting past the age where I desperately need it or care. As the old joke goes, "I still look at other women; I just don't remember why!" |
Mitch
| | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2001 - 3:05 pm: | |
Andrea,
I echo the others who have said that you're unbelievably open-minded.
You began this discussion by asking for suggestions on a compromise. I have roughly the same circumstances as Mr. T and have for years have practiced a compromise with my partner that I think might work for you. Before beginning, however, I'd like to suggest some ground rules that need to be in place before the compromise can work.
Ground Rules
1. The compromise works when you're willing to do more kink than you're normally inclined to do (this is certainly true of you), and he's willing for you to do less than he wants (not so true of him, but I think he can be coached). Even though this stretches your boundaries towards kink and his towards vanilla, the middle course can still be exciting for both of you, as you'll see.
2. Help your husband see that what he really wants is not fantasy but (a) being controlled and (b) experiencing the unknown. Those are common denominators in most submissive fantasies, and once isolated can bring pleasure in themselves without leading you both into the excesses of fantasy. In your compromise solution, it will be helpful to find a way to create scenes where he is inescapably controlled and largely ignorant of what is going to happen next. This will safely siphon off a great deal of his passion for fantasy.
3. Rule 2 above deals with you being in control of each kink session. In addition you need to be in control of the overall sexual relationship. Otherwise you'll continue to be dominated from below. The pace, the intensity, the content of when and how you have sex need to respond to your limits, not his. Fortunately you're in a strong position, and can use it to introduce some order into the situation. My suggestion would be to limit kink to specific sessions at specific times. What works is not a 24x7 fantasy, but real life punctuated by episodes of kink that have a beginning and an ending.
4. For any compromise to work, there has to be a payoff for YOU. And not just a little one, but a HUGE one. It doesn't work for you to do kink because he wants it. You need to do it because you want it, and you don't need to want it for sexual reasons. That is, you'd be perfectly happy with vanilla sex. No reason to give up that position. But I'll bet there are motivators outside the domain of sex that would make you powerfully motivated to do things within the domain of sex. More on that in a moment.
Compromise Practices
Having said all that, here are the compromise practices that have worked wonders in my relationship:
1. Identify one or more things that he could do OUTSIDE of sex that would motivate you to eagerly move more towards kink. Look for something in the category of, "Gosh, if he did THAT I'd do whatever he wanted for two solid hours!" Here are some likely candidates:
> PAY YOU MONEY. I can't tell you how quickly this turned my partner from being ho-hum about my kink to being so enthusiastic that it scared the hell out of me. She ain't cheap, by any means. And boy do I get my money's worth. For her part, in a few hours she earns enough to make her glad that she did the session and make her look forward to the next one. If you have negative judgments about getting paid for sex, I would invite you to let go of them. It does not make you a whore. The man is your husband. Oddly, you may even find that your being paid for sex is pretty interesting--I know he will.
> DO WORK FOR YOU. There may be errands or work of some kinds that he has flatly refused to do but that you would love for him to do. You'll be surprised at how fast his resistance melts when he realizes that if builds a shed or cleans out the attic he can earn some good kink time. I would be aggressive with your demands in this area--no little projects that he can complete in an hour. Require big things that take a whole day or even a weekend. While doing the work his testosterone will be inexhaustible and will drive him happily forward.
> TAKE YOU PLACES. There may be places you want him to go with you that he refuses to visit. Your family, a particular vacation spot, shopping, whatever it is. Again this should be a big enough concession that it makes you enthusiastic about providing a kink scene for him. Make him go visit your family on an overnight trip to another city or something of that magnitude. The more he gets off it and goes, the more excited you'll be about providing him with kink.
2. Negotiate the compromise. This needs to occur on three levels, general, scene, and maintenance.
> GENERAL. On the general level, let him know that for you to participate in kink on a long- term basis it has to be contained. You love him and are willing to do more than you are naturally inclined to do, but it has to be limited to specific periods or scenes. Reiterate that kink is not intrinsically satisfying enough for you to continue doing it year after year, decade after decade. However, if he did certain things outside the sexual domain you could become VERY excited about giving him some awesome scenes. Sketch in general terms what the categories of things are that would really turn you on (money, him doing jobs, him going places, etc.), but don't give specifics just yet.
> SCENE. Once the overall context is set, negotiate a scene. Set a time limit in hours for the scene (two usually works well) and ask him what he would like you to do during that time. When he tells you, consider what it would take for you to do that. Name a dollar figure, a job, a trip, or some other benefit that would make you enthusiastic about doing the scene. If what he wants is just too crazy or dangerous, scale him back. Tell him you won't do that, but if he altered it a certain way you would do it, and here is your price. Go back and forth like this until you come to a compromise agreement. Again, it will probably involve more than you want and less than he does, but you'll have a deal. Part of the deal, by the way, is that he doesn't get to whine, second-guess you, or try to amplify the deal before or during the scene. And you don't get to do the same unless you find that what you've agreed to is dangerous. If my experience is any guide, when the scene is over you will both be more enthusiastic and satisfied than you think.
Rule 2 above identifies two factors for a successful scene--having him be controlled and not know what's next. Even though you've made a deal on what you're going to do, the WAY in which you do it, and WHEN you do it are up to you. Don't let him plan the scene down to every last detail, just have him tell you in general what he wants so that you have the latitude to introduce uncertainty. The unknown is what's most exciting, and doubly so. First, even if what you do is not as severe as he ultimately wants, it's uniquely yours--and therefore it's fresh and surprising. I've been astounded at how exciting it's been to negotiate a general deal with my partner and then have her execute it in her own way, even when the scene is not as extreme as I originally wanted. Second, whatever you do has the thrust of your excitement behind it because you're joyous about whatever he did or paid (all payoffs come BEFORE the scene!).
> MAINTENANCE. Tell him that the one concession to a 24x7 dom/sub relationship that you're willing to make is for him to be in the chastity belt under a set of particular conditions.
You're willing to be a much more demanding keyholder than in the past, which is more than you're normally inclined to do, provided he's willing to accept that this is the only 24x7 kink commitment you can effectively make. While this is nowhere near what he wants, it's at least something and is a service you're willing to provide free of charge.
This level will cost you virtually nothing but will both curb his passion for kink and make him more likely to be satisfied with the scenes you provide. Do this only with the Neosteel belt since the CB2000 is a toy almost anybody can get out of (we use an Access Denied belt and it works like a champ).
Have him agree to give up all his keys to the Neosteel. Open up a safety deposit box at the bank and put a spare key in there; make sure he knows where the safety deposit box key is located in case anything happens to you (which is the only circumstance under which he agrees to retrieve the key at the bank).
Tell him that at unexpected times you will leave him a note to put the belt on, and that you will leave him in it for as long as you like, regardless of whether it is "no longer any fun." The only way he gets out before you want him out is for a medical emergency, for which you agree on a safeword. While the belt's on there will be no conversation about it, no teasing, no special requests from him, no whining, nothing. Life will go on as usual, except that he'll be wearing a belt. As keyholder you do have the right to inquire about his condition from time to time, but do so sparingly.
When you're ready, preferably when you're between scenes, lock him in the belt. Leave it on him for a week. If he's like me, he will experience an initial high, then after a few days will want the thing off very badly. It's important for him to experience a few days of not wanting the belt on to demonstrate that fantasy isn't all it's cracked up to be. If he still likes it after a week keep it on until it loses its appeal.
A long belt stay will make your scene unbelievably delicious to him, regardless of whether you let him out for the scene or not. If you keep him in, a minor amount of teasing will drive him crazy even if he's been wanting the belt off for days. If you let him out, whatever you do in the scene is going to be magnified many times over for him.
I come home every day and check a special place where she leaves her notes. I never know when I'm going in or when I'm coming out, and go through everything from ecstasy to frustration over wearing the belt. But it keeps me grounded and makes her scenes--which by the way are quite infrequent (I said she was expensive!)--excruciatingly pleasureful.
All the above has kept us off the slippery slope of fantasy. She's interested, I'm interested, and the kink is contained.
Hope this helps! |
T
| | Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 5:38 am: | |
It seems that we have three or four doctors, but no patient. Andrea, where are you? Are any of these responses making sense? Do you think some of the ideas can work? What else would you like to know?
A common theme in my earlier comments, and in Mitch's and KD's, is communication. This issue is simply not going to get solved by going from one meltdown to the next without talking about what works for both of you. KD's suggestion of showing him these posts would give you some fertile material to talk about; if you do, please let us know what happens.
Mitch, your input is excellent. I'm sure it took a good bit of time to write, thanks for sharing it with all of us. Some good ideas, and an overall framework, that many of us could use.
To Andrea: It seems that apart from communication, you need to get his focus shifted away from fantasy back to you. I too had been tempted to use Mitch's term "negotiation" in my earlier comments. This is exactly what it is and what is required. In a negotiation, both parties give-up something so that both parties can gain overall. It is not a one-way deal. To get him focused back on you, you need to be in control-- Mitch is very right about this. But he needs to understand that he must willingly give you control and he must live with that situation. If he can't there is a fair chance he will distroy your relationship.
On the other hand, you need to be willing to accept control and the responsibility that comes with it. You mentioned earlier that you had concerns about his boundless creativity, and your apparent lack thereof. Don't let this be a big concern; if you are communicating as Mitch has suggested, he will paint the scene pictures for you, and you will interprete them with your own spin. Taking the opportunity along the way to add a twist of your own, or just doing anything to reinforce the fact that you are in control, will leave him eager to please.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
T |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2001 - 11:19 am: | |
the dutchmyn:
I known two women that would make you happy. Although they never got to the point of bondage
or discipline with me. I am sure all you would have done is show up with a pair of hands cuffs
and you would have been in them for ever. You would have never been out of the dog house with either of these two women. Because you would or could never do any thing right. You could never please them. I lasted about 1 month with one. I net the other a year later and that one lasted 1 1/2 months before dumping them.
I nerver understood why any one wants to put up with some one who constantly berates, punishes them and keeps them locked up all the time. I can see it for a short term fantasy ever once in a while. Not the 24/365 some of you say you want. |
Andrea
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2001 - 6:31 pm: | |
I'm here, and after a few days of reading and digesting all this information, I still don't know how to answer all of you, except with my heartfelt thanks. Many of the comments have indeed opened up conversations between my husband and I. We do have a "control" issue that haunts us as we both desire to live the old fashioned - male dominated life, but this aspect of our life doesn't work well with him in control...the shift in this one area alone is difficult and emotional. We're working together to examine our vast differences, and resolutions to them. I will keep you posted as we progress. Sorry so short this time, will try to update with more details soon. |
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